(11:02 AM) google_2: good morning everyone
(11:02 AM) Buffy_04364: hi google
(11:02 AM) jimmer49: Good morning google
(11:02 AM) google_2: sorry, having problems with my pc
(11:03 AM) google_2: no sound
(11:03 AM) timing 2: all rise
(11:03 AM) RRonzz: morning
(11:03 AM) MartyJ01: Good morning
(11:03 AM) google_2: anyway
(11:03 AM) google_2: I'll type the entire session
(11:03 AM) TriPack: hi google
(11:03 AM) google_2: but if anyone uses a mic I won't be able to hear
(11:03 AM) google_2: I'll start the session now if it's ok with everyone
(11:04 AM) dave_b_quik: :)
(11:04 AM) tomsurf: OK here
(11:04 AM) ann_87: ok here
(11:04 AM) google_2: today's session
(11:04 AM) MartyJ01: ok
(11:04 AM) mdtrader1: ok here
(11:04 AM) google_2: together we'll cover
(11:04 AM) google_2: rule of 4 pattern aka ro4
(11:05 AM) google_2: also 3 humps and how to manage risk/reward (rr) on thsi pattern
(11:05 AM) google_2: and lastly I'll be taking questions on fischer book if anyone
has questions
(11:05 AM) google_2: so let's start
(11:06 AM) google_2: we're still covering patterns that deal with market symmetry
and geometry
(11:06 AM) google_2: patterns that can be measured in terms of entries
(11:06 AM) google_2: and exits
(11:07 AM) google_2: and as many have heard in this room
(11:07 AM) dave_b_quik: the book google mentioned is Robert Fischer, "Fibonacci
Applications and Strategies for Traders" which a number of us are reading
(11:07 AM) google_2: rule of 4 or ro4 is one of those patterns
(11:07 AM) google_2: ro4 really isn't any different than 3 humps as we'll see
in a second
(11:08 AM) google_2: of even head and shoulders h&s
(11:08 AM) google_2: it's just a variation on those patterns
(11:08 AM) google_2: with successful results
(11:08 AM) google_2: as a matter of fact "ann" is r04 specialist
(11:08 AM) google_2: she can spot that pattern while it's developing :-)
(11:09 AM) google_2: today's material
(11:09 AM) google_2: can be found in this folder I created
(11:09 AM) google_2: http://www.dacharts.org/archives/Pattern_Recognition/google_Rule_of_4_and_3_humps/
(11:09 AM) google_2: no need to go to site, I'll paste links to charts here for
your convenience
(11:10 AM) RookieJones: link doesn't work
(11:10 AM) google_2: like with every pattern
(11:10 AM) google_2: we don't know how and when it's going to develop
(11:10 AM) google_2: link not working?
(11:11 AM) Tom_B: ok, retry it
(11:11 AM) RookieJones: now it does sorry
(11:11 AM) timing 2: nope
(11:11 AM) RookieJones: click on link, then click refresh, there is a jpg on the
site
(11:11 AM) google_2: google_r04_1.jpg
(11:11 AM) google_2: our first chart just shows no pattern
(11:11 AM) google_2: we don't know at this stage what's going to develop
(11:12 AM) google_2: I just put 1?? there but in reality there's nothing
(11:12 AM) google_2: for those familiar with leg and arc, they can spot it right
before that "1"
(11:12 AM) google_2: but that's not the point
(11:13 AM) google_2: pls. give me 1 min
(11:13 AM) google_2: technology is failing me today
(11:13 AM) google_2: brb
(11:14 AM) google_2: ok
(11:14 AM) google_2: back
(11:14 AM) google_2: google_ro4_2.jpg
(11:14 AM) google_2: now on this chart
(11:14 AM) google_2: we had 2 points at same level
(11:14 AM) google_2: so we plotted a line
(11:15 AM) google_2: sort of "double top"
(11:15 AM) google_2: no pattern in site yet
(11:15 AM) google_2: but at least we're preparing mentally to look for something
(11:15 AM) google_2: and that's the "anticipation" part that has to
be part of our trading method
(11:16 AM) google_2: google_ro4_3.jpg
(11:16 AM) google_2: no notice 2 things on this chart
(11:16 AM) google_2: we've had 3 points of contact on the upside
(11:16 AM) google_2: but also 2 on the bottom
(11:16 AM) google_2: one might argue that a line should be plotted on the bottom
(11:17 AM) google_2: where the 2 points are at the same level
(11:17 AM) google_2: maybe I should have done that
(11:17 AM) khan122: hi
(11:17 AM) google_2: because we're certainly looking to enter a trade
(11:17 AM) khan122: i am the antiq dealer
(11:17 AM) google_2: on the break of the lower line or upper line
(11:17 AM) google_2: that's awesome khan
(11:18 AM) google_2: got the monaliza?
(11:18 AM) google_2: monalisa
(11:18 AM) google_2: :-)
(11:18 AM) google_2: anyway
(11:18 AM) google_2: google_ro4_4.jpg
(11:19 AM) google_2: this chart shows 2 things
(11:19 AM) google_2: the line has been contacted 4 times
(11:19 AM) google_2: andn also there was a higher low on the last dip
(11:19 AM) google_2: and this is where the entry is made
(11:19 AM) google_2: on the breach of that horizonal line
(11:19 AM) google_2: one can argue this is an h&s
(11:20 AM) google_2: sure why not
(11:20 AM) google_2: the point is
(11:20 AM) google_2: when we're looking for long entry on that pattern
(11:20 AM) google_2: we're looking for the 4 th time this line is breached
(11:20 AM) google_2: and that's why it's called ro4
(11:20 AM) google_2: it happens all the time
(11:21 AM) google_2: and one of the patterns that provides consistent results
(11:21 AM) google_2: r04 is for long entries and not short
(11:21 AM) google_2: the better ones have a line sloping downwards
(11:21 AM) google_2: google_r04_final.jpg
(11:22 AM) google_2: and here's the final chart and the result of that entry
(11:22 AM) sb17: why is globex currently trading, when it's not supposed to?
(11:22 AM) google_2: how often does ro4 show up?
(11:23 AM) google_2: quite often
(11:23 AM) google_2: almost every day we'll get this pattern
(11:23 AM) jimmer49: why would it not work for short also?
(11:23 AM) google_2: so something to look for
(11:23 AM) dave_b_quik: GLOBEX closes in 5 minutes
(11:23 AM) google_2: because on the short side we have other names for patterns
(11:23 AM) google_2: let me elaborate
(11:24 AM) Tom_B: Target projection ?
(11:24 AM) google_2: symmetry on ro4 is difficult to recognize
(11:24 AM) sb17: oppss...just saw that Dave...thanks
(11:24 AM) google_2: that's what I've noticed dealing with this pattern
(11:24 AM) google_2: so to make it easy I don't bother to see if the waves are
of equal length or not
(11:24 AM) google_2: just plot a line
(11:25 AM) google_2: and whenever it's breached on the 4th attempt take the entry
(11:25 AM) google_2: on the long side
(11:25 AM) google_2: we'll discuss projections in another session
(11:25 AM) google_2: just wanted to show the pattern
(11:25 AM) google_2: and make folks aware that it exists
(11:25 AM) google_2: let's show a recent example of a trade we took last friday
(11:26 AM) TL11: do you watch other time frames for this pattern?
(11:26 AM) google_2: google_r04_example.jpg
(11:26 AM) raz_62: is the pattern still valid if it takes more than 4 touches
(11:26 AM) google_2: in this chart you'll see
(11:26 AM) google_2: the break of trendline
(11:27 AM) google_2: although there was no follow through
(11:27 AM) sb17: google...have you observed this pattern with ES?
(11:27 AM) google_2: but the point is we're looking for "safe" entries
(11:27 AM) google_2: to provide "consistent" results
(11:27 AM) google_2: tl, we'll get to timeframes in the next segment
(11:27 AM) google_2: but for now we're using 3 min.
(11:28 AM) google_2: that's an ideal timeframe to look for patterns
(11:28 AM) mdtrader1: do you see this pattern happen more between 11amET and 2pmEt?
(11:28 AM) google_2: sb, it happens on es as well
(11:28 AM) google_2: but....
(11:28 AM) google_2: nq is faster
(11:28 AM) google_2: and wilder :-)
(11:28 AM) google_2: so the patterns shape in shorter time
(11:28 AM) google_2: md, any time of the day
(11:29 AM) google_2: ok I'm done with r04
(11:29 AM) MartyJ01: Is there a certain amount of time you should allow for this
trade to develop ?
(11:30 AM) google_2: marty, as a general rule we want a pattern to develop in
no less than an hour
(11:30 AM) MartyJ01: thnx
(11:30 AM) google_2: and that's a good leading question to the next topic
(11:30 AM) google_2: :-)
(11:30 AM) google_2: 3 humps was covered before
(11:30 AM) google_2: in terms of identifying it
(11:31 AM) google_2: today, I thought of covering how to manage it
(11:31 AM) google_2: in terms of entries and exits
(11:31 AM) google_2: risk and reward
(11:31 AM) google_2: the point is to "consistently" pull money out of
the market using those patterns
(11:32 AM) google_2: google_3humps_riskreward_1.jpg
(11:32 AM) google_2: let's spend some time on this chart
(11:33 AM) dave_b_quik: the previous discussion of 3-humps is posted at http://www.dacharts.org/archives/Pattern_Recognition/Google_Gartley/
(11:33 AM) google_2: 4 main things are plotted
(11:33 AM) google_2: the pattern, entry, stop loss, and exit
(11:34 AM) google_2: for ensign users
(11:34 AM) Evil_Eva_Evalina: hi every1!
(11:34 AM) google_2: I've used the elliot wave tool just to speed up plotting
the pattern
(11:34 AM) Evil_Eva_Evalina: hi denni
(11:34 AM) Evil_Eva_Evalina: lol
(11:34 AM) google_2: straight forward 3 humps
(11:34 AM) Evil_Eva_Evalina: lmao
(11:35 AM) google_2: we're discussed the entry before
(11:35 AM) google_2: entry in on the breach of sloping trendline
(11:35 AM) google_2: now comes the point of placing a stoploss
(11:35 AM) google_2: and we get into all sorts of debate :-)
(11:36 AM) google_2: it's discretionary!!
(11:36 AM) google_2: but
(11:36 AM) google_2: risk is part of trading blah blah blah
(11:36 AM) google_2: so to define the risk
(11:37 AM) google_2: the initial stop loss in this particular setup should be
placed
(11:37 AM) google_2: around the top of the last hump
(11:37 AM) google_2: if this pattern is valid
(11:37 AM) google_2: which is the case most of the time
(11:37 AM) google_2: price won't exceed that top
(11:37 AM) google_2: that puts one's mind at ease knowing where they'll be stopped
if the trade doesn't work out
(11:38 AM) google_2: why is it called initial stop loss?
(11:38 AM) google_2: because we're giving the trade some breathing room
(11:38 AM) google_2: while accounting for any disasters
(11:38 AM) google_2: if it fails and the top is taken out
(11:38 AM) google_2: this initial stop loss would be moved once the pattern moves
in the right direction
(11:38 AM) google_2: which is "down"
(11:38 AM) FrankT: Googs does this need also a failed test of prior high?
(11:39 AM) FrankT: For pattern
(11:39 AM) google_2: frank, you mean prior intraday hi?
(11:39 AM) FrankT: yes
(11:39 AM) google_2: not necessarily
(11:39 AM) FrankT: Or is that incidental-
(11:39 AM) FrankT: ok
(11:39 AM) google_2: we're dealing with the pattern in isolation of other things
(11:40 AM) google_2: we're daytrading
(11:40 AM) google_2: so we're looking for setups
(11:40 AM) google_2: also on the chrt
(11:40 AM) google_2: I've highlighted where the profit target will be taken
(11:40 AM) google_2: and that's also debatable
(11:40 AM) google_2: but the way I look at is
(11:41 AM) google_2: if the trade doesn't provide profit
(11:41 AM) google_2: that's equal to the distance from initial stop loss to breach
of trendline
(11:41 AM) google_2: then it's not worth staying in
(11:41 AM) cluetrain: would you guess a an oscillator or tick divergance requirement
would improve success rate?
(11:41 AM) google_2: that's to say the least
(11:42 AM) qatwo: her sound is not working drh_4
(11:42 AM) google_2: clue, certainly, although I don't use them but can be very
helpful in this situation
(11:42 AM) dave_b_quik: today's charts are posted at http://www.dacharts.org/archives/Pattern_Recognition/google_Rule_of_4_and_3_humps/
(11:42 AM) cluetrain: thx
(11:43 AM) google_2: now that I've give a general idea about the main points when
dealing with 3 humps
(11:43 AM) dave_b_quik: i'll post the transcript later, drh
(11:43 AM) google_2: let's get into specifics
(11:43 AM) Tom_B: goog's 1 to 1 R/R min ?
(11:43 AM) google_2: tom yes
(11:43 AM) google_2: google_3humps_riskreward_2.jpg
(11:43 AM) google_2: on this chart
(11:44 AM) google_2: I've listed the things to do to able to recognize 3 humps
(11:44 AM) google_2: now going back
(11:44 AM) NQoos: would suggest 3/10/1 macd histogram to spot divergence
(11:44 AM) google_2: we agree that this pattern is a consistent moneymaker
(11:44 AM) google_2: provides safest entries
(11:44 AM) google_2: and good results
(11:45 AM) google_2: the 2 points I want to emphasize
(11:45 AM) google_2: is the 3rd and 4th
(11:45 AM) google_2: duration of pattern
(11:46 AM) google_2: the longer it takes for the pattern to develop the better
(11:46 AM) google_2: we if we were looking at 3 min charts
(11:46 AM) google_2: we certainly want no less than 20 bars to complete a pattern
(11:46 AM) google_2: around that number
(11:47 AM) google_2: smaller timeframes like 1 min can be distorting
(11:47 AM) google_2: on this particular chart the 3 humps developed over the course
of the day
(11:47 AM) google_2: that's a very ideal setup
(11:48 AM) QSuzy: google.....looks like 3humps would be the shorting equivalent
of the rule of 4...
(11:48 AM) google_2: qsuzy precisely
(11:48 AM) mdtrader1: google, what was the end result on this chart?
(11:48 AM) raz_62: how do you determine to combine the 2 humps in wave 3
(11:48 AM) google_2: but symmetry can be seen on 3 humps
(11:48 AM) Jayhawks34243: google, this pattern works going in both directions,
right? i.e. bullish and bearish?
(11:48 AM) google_2: while symmetry is very difficult on the downside
(11:48 AM) QSuzy: good point .... tx
(11:49 AM) google_2: md, will get to that in a minute
(11:49 AM) google_2: raz
(11:49 AM) google_2: didn't touch the line
(11:49 AM) jfourusa: google....just joined. Where can I find the chart you are
feferencing?
(11:49 AM) google_2: jay, you cn say that
(11:49 AM) Jayhawks34243: thanks
(11:49 AM) google_2: google_3humps_riskreward_3.jpg
(11:50 AM) google_2: next chat
(11:50 AM) google_2: chart
(11:50 AM) google_2: deals with entries
(11:50 AM) google_2: once the pattern has been identified or recognized
(11:51 AM) google_2: we're looking for a point where this 3 hump is going to top
(11:51 AM) MartyJ01: Do you have your charts set to all sessions to see overnight
activity as well ?
(11:51 AM) google_2: and there isn't a fixed rule
(11:51 AM) google_2: just watch it
(11:51 AM) google_2: sometimes this 3rd hump goes up much higher than what you
see
(11:51 AM) google_2: so often you'll see it hit an important resistance level
(11:51 AM) google_2: or even a fib level
(11:52 AM) google_2: and that's often the case
(11:52 AM) google_2: marty, yes
(11:52 AM) google_2: now the point I want to stress here
(11:52 AM) google_2: is the 4th and 5th
(11:52 AM) google_2: 2 types of entries
(11:52 AM) google_2: one is aggressive
(11:52 AM) google_2: and those should be left alone
(11:52 AM) google_2: until one is comfortable
(11:53 AM) google_2: and producing "consistent" results with pattern
(11:53 AM) google_2: and also familiar with support and resistance levels
(11:54 AM) google_2: the only advantage of that is the stoploss
(11:54 AM) google_2: is tighter
(11:54 AM) google_2: and risk is less
(11:54 AM) google_2: but in reality the better entry is on breach of trendline
(11:54 AM) google_2: and I do enter there most of the time
(11:55 AM) google_2: google_3humps_riskreward_4.jpg
(11:55 AM) google_2: the next chart deals with exits
(11:55 AM) google_2: very subjective
(11:55 AM) google_2: and discretionary
(11:56 AM) google_2: nevertheless, there are several things to consider
(11:56 AM) google_2: when deciding on taking profits
(11:56 AM) google_2: we go back again to knowing support and resistance levels
(11:56 AM) google_2: but if someone is just starting out
(11:56 AM) google_2: they can put a rule there
(11:57 AM) google_2: for placing a tighter stop once 5 points are reached
(11:57 AM) google_2: in my experience that pattern doesn't offer less than 5 points
(11:57 AM) google_2: now once the pattern is going our way
(11:57 AM) google_2: we need to place the stop at breakeven (b/e)
(11:58 AM) google_2: and again
(11:58 AM) google_2: the longer the pattern develops, the better range it'll give
in terms of profits
(11:58 AM) google_2: now if we were to take a look at this entire chart
(11:59 AM) google_2: to quantify what we're talking about
(11:59 AM) google_2: in terms of "potential" profits
(11:59 AM) google_2: if we get this pattern 3 times per week, as a worst case
scenario
(11:59 AM) google_2: and we make 5 points
(11:59 AM) google_2: out of each
(12:00 PM) google_2: that's 15 points per week on 1 contract on 1 pattern
(12:00 PM) google_2: the point isn't the profit, but the consistency of making
it
(12:00 PM) google_2: also it helps boost confidence
(12:01 PM) google_2: so that's $300/week
(12:01 PM) google_2: some might think it isn't enough
(12:01 PM) zentigerr: Very good advice:) matter of statistics over time
(12:01 PM) google_2: but how many really pull money out of the market consistently
(12:01 PM) google_2: and that's 1 pattern
(12:01 PM) google_2: google_3humps_riskreward_5.jpg
(12:02 PM) google_2: the next chart shows
(12:02 PM) google_2: 2 setups
(12:02 PM) google_2: both developed last week
(12:03 PM) google_2: and I was looking at them to practice those concepts I
just covered
(12:03 PM) google_2: notice both developed over the course of the day
(12:03 PM) google_2: very ideal setup
(12:03 PM) google_2: s
(12:03 PM) google_2: which one would you choose?
(12:03 PM) google_2: anyone?
(12:03 PM) google_2: no right or wrong answers
(12:04 PM) google_2: just a matter of applying logic
(12:04 PM) raz_62: 1
(12:04 PM) laniermasters: one on left
(12:04 PM) Tom_B: 1, thighter pattern
(12:04 PM) TL11: setup 2 - no time left for setup 1
(12:04 PM) NQoos: 2
(12:04 PM) zentigerr: chart not showing up
(12:04 PM) mdtrader1: 2 is clearer pattern
(12:04 PM) dave_b_quik: i don't hold overnite, so 1 is out
(12:05 PM) NQoos: both
(12:05 PM) NQoos: i did
(12:05 PM) dave_b_quik: :)
(12:05 PM) FrankT: 1 not broken TL yet
(12:05 PM) google_2: and that's the point I wanted to emphasize
(12:05 PM) google_2: regarding discretion
(12:05 PM) google_2: google_3humps_riskreward_6.jpg
(12:06 PM) google_2: this chart
(12:06 PM) google_2: shows the advantages and disadvantages
(12:06 PM) google_2: in terms of stop loss
(12:06 PM) google_2: entry and exit
(12:07 PM) google_2: I agree
(12:07 PM) google_2: the first one provides a tighter stop loss
(12:07 PM) google_2: but it's overnight
(12:07 PM) google_2: god knows what happens after market hours with all the
reports flying around
(12:07 PM) google_2: the second one on the other hand
(12:07 PM) google_2: is tricky
(12:08 PM) google_2: the intial stop loss is wider
(12:08 PM) google_2: one might argue that it can be placed tighter
(12:08 PM) zentigerr: More risk more reward more of a question of what you want
from the trade
(12:08 PM) google_2: sure
(12:08 PM) google_2: but where
(12:08 PM) google_2: one can see on the chart
(12:08 PM) google_2: 2 other patterns
(12:08 PM) google_2: that hinted to a reversal
(12:09 PM) google_2: not always the case but were good clues
(12:09 PM) google_2: also the top hit an important fib
(12:09 PM) google_2: I do remember on this particular one I shorted close to
the top
(12:10 PM) google_2: whereby the first setup I left alone
(12:10 PM) google_2: ok
(12:10 PM) google_2: I'm done with riskreward pretaining to 3 humps
(12:10 PM) hanksterr: that was a 79% retrace from low to high
(12:10 PM) google_2: the pattern was covered
(12:10 PM) google_2: and stop loss was defined
(12:10 PM) google_2: and lastly results were quantified
(12:11 PM) google_2: in terms of potential profits/returns
(12:11 PM) raz_62: was that a valid three hump pattern within wave 1 of the
no 1 setup
(12:11 PM) google_2: I'll do the same for other patterns in future sessions
(12:12 PM) google_2: raz could be
(12:12 PM) google_2: but that's where we're also looking at the total picture
(12:12 PM) MartyJ01: Is there anything you would be looking at on longer timeframes
that would negate the pattern (IE 15minute, 60minute)
(12:12 PM) zentigerr: Very interesting stuff very smart to focus on what is
in the area of numbers and T/A. Have to go but thanks for you time and very
good job:)
(12:13 PM) google_2: so one might argue it's an r04 to the upside
(12:13 PM) google_2: marty
(12:13 PM) google_2: good point
(12:13 PM) google_2: what I wanted to show is how to play patterns
(12:14 PM) google_2: and book consitent results using smaller timeframes
(12:14 PM) google_2: especially when someone is starting out
(12:14 PM) google_2: smaller timeframes provide less risk
(12:14 PM) google_2: and duration of trade is shorter
(12:14 PM) mdtrader1: the pattern is visual and subjective, correct Google?
(12:15 PM) google_2: subjective in terms of?
(12:15 PM) mdtrader1: no precise points of recognising the humps..
(12:15 PM) dave_b_quik: i.e. it can't be programmed into the computer
(12:16 PM) mdtrader1: eg. fib area etc
(12:16 PM) google_2: you just have to train your eyes on spotting them
(12:16 PM) google_2: they're the easiest to spot IMO
(12:16 PM) MartyJ01: Is a completion of a hump the touch of the trend line ?
(12:16 PM) Emi5: that ruke seems consistent with retro trader humm!
(12:16 PM) google_2: just stick by the rule of having a pattern to develop in
no less than 60 minutes
(12:17 PM) google_2: marty yes
(12:17 PM) google_2: ok I'm done with that part as well
(12:17 PM) google_2: here's what I have for next session
(12:18 PM) google_2: unless there are other suggestions
(12:18 PM) dave_b_quik: good job, google
(12:18 PM) google_2: triangles will be covered
(12:18 PM) google_2: in terms of types
(12:18 PM) google_2: defining objectives and range
(12:18 PM) NQoos: very nice presentation
(12:18 PM) mdtrader1: Google, this was a great presentation !!!
(12:19 PM) Tom_B: When will nxt pres be ?
(12:19 PM) TriPack: Nice patterns, I'll have to start looking for them!
(12:19 PM) timing 2: thanks g,good usefull tools
(12:19 PM) google_2: also I'll show practical uses of the "pitchfork"
to define exits and probably objectives
(12:19 PM) philsti: thanks again, Google, very infomative
(12:19 PM) tk_71: great job, google
(12:19 PM) Emi5: vell done thanks
(12:19 PM) google_2: then I'll show some "practical" money management
techniques
(12:19 PM) Tom_B: Terriffic , google...tnx
(12:19 PM) dave_b_quik: triangles, I'll look forward to that
(12:19 PM) MartyJ01: Great work googles, I really enjoyed it. That was very
nice of you to share with everyone. Looking forward to any future sessions :)
(12:20 PM) brandon_131: Google, each of the the humps in setup2 were 60 min
long and subdivided into 3 pushes...did you trade them?
(12:20 PM) Buffy_04364: great job google tks
(12:20 PM) raz_62: Thanks Google very helpful to me
(12:20 PM) tomsurf: Googs- much appreciated and very clear and well done. Thanks
for your time and efforts :-)
(12:21 PM) google_2: you're all welcome
(12:21 PM) Doctor Zaius: Good stuff, thank you for taking the time to share
it
(12:21 PM) ann_87: well done google, thanks
(12:21 PM) google_2: I'll be here for a few in case one has questions about
"Fischer's" book
(12:21 PM) cluetrain: thank you google
(12:22 PM) mdtrader1: where can i get a copy?
(12:22 PM) Jayhawks34243: Did you learn these patterns from a mentor? Fisher's
book?