Beanman Pyrapoint discussion August 16, 2001 voice chat typed by Buffy_04364

Charts available at http://www.dacharts.com

beanman_1: I posted charts all day that I thought that I could start with if everyone want to start with the first one..
Buffy_04364: open Beanman pyra3 chart
http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman-pyra3.jpg
anchored from swing high with 22 degrees
price has been traveling down in what looks like regression channels
one of the principals pyra based on is square root of nine

Buffy_04364: that is what the bottom and top of the squares are (TOS)
I am going to mainly use the 15M chart
but will refer to the 4M for entries
works in all time frames
there is a reason why 4M is used
has to do with the earth rotation and Don Hall prefers it for short term trading
45 bar-%K3-%D5 Stochastics and RSI-3
in the chart asi, rsi and stoch are all gathered above 75 and this says most probably at a swing high in that TF
There is a Pyra template that can be downloaded through Ensign Internet services.
trader139: Who is beanman?
Buffy_04364: He has studied the book and he has taken Don Hall seminars

Buffy_04364: if this chart and indicators are suggesting swing low lets look for a reversal
first resistance is going to be at 90 degrees at 50 and 54
if you also recall we went sideways here and created a triangle I believe in lower TF
I am not thinking about going long until that is broken
trend is down we are in a downward channel and we have reversed there several times
if you look at bottom square from 90 to 112
the 45 degree angle that starts at 51 and goes to 90
we are on the top of it which is somewhat bullish
if we break that upward angle the next objective would be down to the bottom of the square which is about 1518
hanksterr: what degrees are you using for your chart
Buffy_04364: yes the 45 degree upward support line starting at 51
if you think about it we made a big move down and price moved faster than time
price got ahead of time and now going sideways as time catches up
lets go to next chart pyra5
http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman pyra5.jpg
Orprepus: said 22 degree earlier
Beanman has his notes on the charts which helps a lot!
by the way Howard refers to the vertical lines as EOS end of square
dave_b_quick: 22.5 good enough?
Buffy_04364: yes
I know mine says six when actually 5 something
still not thinking long need to break 1554 on NQ
2Devs: Beanman.. is that on a closing basis?????
Buffy_04364: we could think about the short side on break or pivot on 45 degree angle
or risk a few points above the 45 degree angle
we also know that there is an EOS in about 30-45 minutes
by the rules I am waiting for a break above horizontal line or a break of the 45 degree angle with a pivot
this chart is 22.5 degrees
you adjust degree size for volatility of instrument you are trading

Buffy_04364: if you look at the intersection half of 22.5 degrees is 11.25
actually this is trading in the upper half of square

Buffy_04364: so what we do next is look at the 11.25 degree chart
lets look at Beanman pyra6 chart
http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman-pyra6.jpg


Buffy_04364: Ensign figures it all automaticall
draw tools and click on the Square with the X in it
anchor it at significant high / low
everyone on chart 6?
the S&P is less volatile and I have it set to 22 degrees

Buffy_04364: notice all the indicators are all gathered above 75 back in May
dave_b_quick: that's RSI and STO?
Buffy_04364: notice also today the SP reversed exactly at the bottom of that square
RSI 3 , Stoch 45,3,5 and ASI
Dave ASI RSI and Stoch
the indicators are gathered at the bottom suggesting a swing low
you can also see where the RSI (red) popped back up and reversed at the top of some of the squares
also notice that start at zero coming down the 45 degree line it was never ever broken to the upside
meaning the trend has always been down until the 45 is broken
although there have been a lot of tradable bounces
the overall trend on the daily has been down
lets go to chart 7
http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman-pyra7.jpg
pjrl: Can't you just draw a TL to do the same thing?
Buffy_04364: yes the diagonals in pyra should match a TL you would normally draw or close to it I believe
pjrl: Is everyone on chart 7 of the 4 min NQ
Buffy_04364: keep in mind the 15M chart of the naz we were just looking at
you can see the sideways congestion easier here and you can see how it was contained in between the horizontal lines 1554 and 1536
he has it marked too at the 253-265 diagonal
you can see that we almost did a 2B or double bottom
never had chance to go short below 1539
now that it broke above 1554 lets think about the long side
also our indicators have bottomed at 1302 time that is
also notice on the chart where we had a simultaneous break out on the 15M chart
there is a note on the chart of this
let’s go to chart 8
http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman-pyra8.jpg
this is a nice chart Beanman
lots of explanation
these are the entry rules and are basically from the manual
the goal is to trade in the direction of the trend and to be able to quantify your risk at any time
if you look at this chart you can see the entries
we only heard the first rule
if you use entries 2-3-4 your risk is only a few points
EOS - end of square - entry
breaking of top of bottom of square in direction of trend
or breaking of 45 degree angle
your risk is only a few points in every trade
if I wait for price to get to one of these points, eos top or bottom of square or break of 45 degree angle those are my best entries

Buffy_04364: we can read them on the chart
Hat7: But can you see the possible entries with limited risk
Buffy_04364: using Pyrapoint you know very quickly if you are wrong
trader139: how would you set your stop on a diag line trade
Buffy_04364: if you enter with these rules
dave_b_quick: near the lines it's limited risk because you can set your Stop Loss on the other side of the line?
Buffy_04364: you set your stop on a diagonal trade a few pts above the diagonal
: yes..you can almost draw another diagonal line with an alarm in pyra
donl_2: you use the 45 and 90 deg lines as s & r
scottybythelake: are the blue and purple trend lines of what value setting
Buffy_04364: I think it is the whole channel Dave
in the book don hall suggests a stop above the diagonal a few ticks for like a week
does he mention shorter term trades
QSuzy: Does the tool drawing update in real time?
Buffy_04364: if the 45 is support and resistance and also the horizontal lines
yes suzy
trader139: same stop for 15 min and 4 min?

remainder of transcript in original format - may clean up later (scylnx)

Buffy_04364: notice also how the diagonal is right beside the 20 ema on the 15M chart
Buffy_04364: price not only has to go above the diagonal but has to close above it
Buffy_04364: you see pokes above but not a close
ispe_bc: what is fast EMA on this chart?
Buffy_04364: they are running stops if it just pokes above
Buffy_04364: 20 ema is fast on this chart
Buffy_04364: ok lets talk about the rules for eos
reset_3: on ensign windows where can I find this pyra pt ?
Buffy_04364: and what a change of trend is
Buffy_04364: draw tools - the square with the X in it.
Buffy_04364: 4 things can happen at EOS
Buffy_04364: at the EOS is where time and price converge - gann
Buffy_04364: at the EOS the trend can change down to up up to down sideways to up or down or up/ down to an excelerated up/down
Buffy_04364: the eos are the vertical lines
Buffy_04364: and if you look on this chart you can see trend changes at EOS
Buffy_04364: if you look at a weekly chart you can pinpoint where EOS will be
Buffy_04364: then you go do daily to figure what day EOS might be
amfw: For EOS, is trend up/down to sideways also a possibility?
Buffy_04364: then if you go to hourly you can anticipate where weekly/daily/hourly EOS might occur
Orprepus: Wkly, daily, 60 or 120 min , 15, min and 4min.. part of my pretrade routine
Buffy_04364: anchor on a significant high low
Buffy_04364: that is what differentiates an EOS on a 15M and what might be eos on weekly, daily, etc
ispe_bc: When do they next converge?
Buffy_04364: it is very similar to a cluster fib - a retracement is not big deal but if happens to be through fib numbers than it means something
Buffy_04364: they converge when they all hit eos at the same time
Buffy_04364: you can see on this 15m chart it broke above resistance at 1554 and is now traveling with the 45 degree upward channel
Beanman: go to chart 9

http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman-pyra9.jpg
Orprepus: nice chart
Buffy_04364: these are great charts Beanman
Beanman: thks
Buffy_04364: here I have pointed out some of the possible entry points using the previous rules
Orprepus: thx you for doing this - I know it takes time to type up those notes
Buffy_04364: we all appreciate the time you put into this
Buffy_04364: I have also shown you the objective
Buffy_04364: if you are short the top of square going down next objective is 45 degree angle
Buffy_04364: second objective is bottom of the square
Buffy_04364: in the first example you may want to take profits at the bottom of the square
QSuzy: Beanman.....Ensign seems to automatically input degrees....is this something one should tinker with?
Buffy_04364: properties window suzy is where degrees are changed
QSuzy: thks
trader139: how long do u stay with this anchor
Buffy_04364: if today is swing low I will reanchor pyrapoint
Buffy_04364: go to chart pyra10

http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman-pyra10.jpg
Buffy_04364: when ever I go from swing high to swing low I reanchor
Tom_B: is 15 min the primary timeframe ?
Buffy_04364: tom this works in any TF
Buffy_04364: after reanchored at zero after the 12th bar there is an eos and a change in trend and price is traveling up the 45 degree highway
Buffy_04364: you can also see a couple of pullbacks to the horizontal line 1556 and your risk was just a few points below that
Buffy_04364: and now you can see we ended the day on EOS
Buffy_04364: we also remember after we went through the top of square next objective is top of square and where you tighten your stop
Buffy_04364: if I sold I would wait for a pullback now to the 45 degree angle
Buffy_04364: if I go long my risk would just be a few points below the 4 degree
Buffy_04364: he said he repositions at swing high and low tom
Buffy_04364: go to chart 11

http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman-pyra11.jpg
hilander_3: Tom, this is a 4min chart
Buffy_04364: you can see pyrapoint works in any TF
Buffy_04364: however this is traveling up the 4 degree line
Buffy_04364: but the pullback stops at the upward support line on the 15 minute chart
Buffy_04364: retracement in a 4M are actually pullbacks to support lines in the 15M chart
Buffy_04364: so if you are trading a 4M chart you probably wouldn't want to go short when it broke TOS around 1558
Orprepus: agree
Buffy_04364: I actually think this might be a good combination to use with retrotrader trading system on the website
ppusa: The default setting on Ensign I just got was 22 when attached to 15 min. How do I decide whether to use 11 or 22?
Buffy_04364: you have to get used to adjusting the degrees based on how stock is moving and the volatility
Buffy_04364: 22 for 15M chart and 11.5 for 4M and 2.8 on 1M or 2M chart
Orprepus: degrees that is
Buffy_04364: if on a time line also should be looking for change of trend
hanksterr: please give all three settings for STO
dave_b_quick: fast RSI setting?
Buffy_04364: you did a great job Beanman!!!!!!!!
jazzallnite: thnx...very good
QSuzy: Have you had good success with this tool?
ppusa: thanks Beanman.
amfw: Thank-you Beanman!
Buffy_04364: going back to chart 7
http://www.dacharts.org/archives/pyrapoint/Beanman-pyra7.jpg
StefanSiara: what is the name of the book?
Buffy_04364: pyrapoint by don hall
StefanSiara: thanks
StefanSiara: OK I am on chart 7
hanksterr: what is %k and %d for the 45 bars
Beanman: Hank, 45 bar stochk=3, d=5
hanksterr: ty
Buffy_04364: I see what you mean Roger by the nice thrust that follows those arrows
Orprepus: roger ask question again
Beanman: Buffy, the red arrow show where Stoch,ASI and RSI were below 25
Buffy_04364: how are the arrows generated on chart 7
Beanman: drawing tool the arrow
Buffy_04364: let us know when you figure out how to do it roger :-)
QSuzy: Did Beanman ever say what ASI is? I was out of the room for a couple minutes....
Buffy_04364: color bands might be the way to go maybe
QSuzy: Accumulative Swing Index by Well Wilder...
Orprepus: is there a setting for ASI
Orprepus: thxs - stoch setting for all time frames
Orprepus: I actually have an ESPL study that tells me when all three are above 75 or below 25 works in all TF's
Beanman: I am trying just standardized on 3 indicators and Pyra
Orprepus: KISS wins all the time
trader139: bman any comment on using tick charts with pyra?
trader139: work great except that you lose time element
Orprepus: similar concept with PNF because PNF uses 45 degree angles for support resistance
hanksterr: Beanman, can you post a chart of the alerts to get those red arrows
Orprepus: had book first or meeting with don hall?
hanksterr: this was fantastic, ty
trader139: thank u bman. I hope u get lots of beans to count!
QSuzy: thanks Beanman......bye guys......hasta manana...
Buffy_04364: yes it is
Buffy_04364: RSI 3
2Devs: Beanman Say I want to thank you for the effort you put into the charts. And the time you spent explaining.
2Devs: Yes.. what is cool that a fast RSI, with slow Stoch and ASI isolates swings
Buffy_04364: ditto dev
2Devs: It helped alot! Answered some questions
dave_b_quick: thanks much, a glimmer of light here
Buffy_04364: yes your presentation was very thorough
dave_b_quick: often the RSI pops up , pyra has support/resistance and use RSI for entry
ppusa: Yes, thank you. Your comment on adjusting the degrees should help me alot.
NADOMED: is that a 3 min RSI bars or nim's
Buffy_04364: sure answers anyone who is wondering about it and whether to get book or not
Buffy_04364: 45 bars roger
Orprepus: it is in the notes
Buffy_04364: %K is 3
ppusa: Book talks about RSI popping up on retracements...
Buffy_04364: %D is 5
Beanman: Thanks all.. I like pyra because you quickly know if you are wrong and fighting the trend...
Buffy_04364: going to leave this open so type anything else you might want included in the script to be posted to the website
Orprepus: bman - stoch settings the same for all time frames?
Orprepus: yes
Orprepus: degrees for higher time frames - weekly daily 120M 60M
Roger Schelling: What is the ASI?
Roger Schelling: Welles Wilder Accumulative Swing Index
trader139: bman is there any point to using 15m 45m and 135m which are all multiples of 3 or should u stagger the time frames?
Orprepus: bman - why 15m and not 16M??
Beanman:I am sticking to wkly, daily, and perhaps 120 to just know if there are any EOS coming into play that day..
Beanman: And then during the day 4 min, 15min and maybe 60 or daily
Beanman: 15 or 16.. I may try 16.. but no real difference that I know of
Beanman: There are some Gann reason as to which numbers to use..
scottybythelake: how many pts/wk has this been generating
scottybythelake: because this is based on square of 9
Orprepus: I have been using 4, 16, 60 120 and sometimes look at 32
trader139: if u hit a diag on 60 min and horizontal on 15min is that a confirmation?
Beanman: trader 139 would have to see it..
Orprepus: I was thinking multiple of 4 for time frames
Orprepus: really like the 120m have for a long time
Orprepus: You always want to trade the square and triangle you are in..
Orprepus: Yes 120 min is good
Orprepus: just cuts down on the noise
Beanman: I also anchor based on the significant high/low for that timeframe
Orprepus: daily I have anchored for several months... 15min for several days. possibly changing for today
Orprepus: 4min I change almost every day
Orprepus: did you see my chart from yesterday 120M NDX2
Beanman: I the seminar I attend with Don Hall , unlike the book, he now reanchors the small TF on every swing/wave
Beanman: I will check it out.
Orprepus: did you get the book first and than the seminar?
Beanman: Degrees also change.. can be 11degrees going down.. then retrace / consolidate at 5.6 degrees...
Orprepus: Yes..
Beanman: Studied the book for several weeks. and also talked to Don a lot on phone and email before attending
Orprepus: He is a great guy
Orprepus: great might do the same this PP seems to resonate with me
Beanman: If you ever read any Gann stuff, they talk about Harmonics and vibrations.. that is what you see in PP, the price "vibrates or oscillated up/down the channel
amfw: Is the criteria for a new swing on the short TF all three indicators hitting 27/75 and , if so, do you use the same criteria for the longer TF's?
amfw: Gann also thought time was more important than price.... Hence the EOS is very important, higher TF' rule on EOS
amfw: Remember , Like Elliott Wave, you can have waves within waves.. nothing goes straight up or down...
Beanman: below 25 or above 75.. Don calls them his barometer.. He still looks for confirmation with Pyra
Beanman: The indicator show you the past.. Pyra suggest where it may go in the future.. with a way to limit your risk
Beanman: indicators = rear view mirror,.. Pyra is looking out the front windshield
Orprepus: like the steps - the market does not like to take big jumps it tries to have some order in chaos - just look at the daily every couple of weeks we take a jump and skip a couple of step and the market makes sure to fill in the step
Orprepus: done for the day closing up shop until tomorrow - see ya
Beanman: Orprepus. with PP, you have to trade the TF you are most comfortable with and with you risk tolerance.. Futures require so much precision..with PP you can scalp on the lower TF's with tight stops or trade the higher TF with wider stops
Beanman: The goal is to always now where you are at in the market / trade... so yes you can go long in the 4min at support, even though the 15 min and perhaps others are in a downtrend, but you odds are lower..
elly_34: does don hall have a website?
Beanman: No, But he has a bunch of QA and FAQ at Tradersworld.com They are the publishers of his book. I am not sure that is the right URL.. so do a search
elly_34: ty
Beanman: Also, there have been several articles in the previous Ensign monthly newsletters
Beanman: And there is a Pyrapoint yahoo group
Beanman: I highly recommend the book..
Beanman: For any successful trading plan/strategy you need a trading plan with rules for entry/exit, a minimum of indicators, software to support it (Ensign and Pyra), and most important an Edge ( from the book Trading in the zone)
elly_34: I’m probably asking what has been asked, but I had to be away from here so pls bear with me.....how much does the pyrapoint factor into your trading decision Beanman?
Beanman: With Pyra and the rules for entry you can isolate some of the emotions because shows you were to enter and if you do , where you are wrong
elly_34: so rules with pyra can be more mechanical?
Beanman: Yes...Study the rules I posted... and visualize on the charts where you could have entered.. with the trend.. of the next higher TF
elly_34: are your rules in this chat or posted elsewhere on the site?
Beanman: If you entered against the trend.. and price goes above/below the top/bottom of the square against you, you are wrong..
Beanman: If it goes above/below the 45 against you are wrong ..
Beanman: No matter what you think, hope, pray, what CNBC says.
trader139: for daily, weekly do u use ES (24 hr trade) or day session only (SP)
Beanman: Don Hall , the author suggest just the day session..
Beanman: not enough volume during the night
trader139: foxy this presentation will be archived at dacharts.com
Beanman: Good night all.. dinnertime..
elly_34: thank you so much
elly_34: nite all
Roger Schelling: Thanks Beanman much appreciated
reset_3: that any one know the book that Beanman was talking ? I get the author Don Hall but not the name of the book
hanksterr: name of the book is Pyrapoint
reset_3: thanks handk and scotty
scottybythelake: TraderWorld is quite a repository of info
Beanman: Scotty, go to the pyrapoint QA.. also some past articles in previous issues that you may find online at Tradersworld
Beanman: PYRAPOINT http://www.tradersworld.com/PYRAPOINT Username: don Password: hall
(as of 2/1/04 this link appears to be dead)
Beanman: FYI, You can all try the above to enter the pyrapoint sections at TradersWorld